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在二战中“与苏联作战并不意味着你一定是纳粹” [复制链接]

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发表于 2023-10-3 04:28:56 |只看该作者 |正序浏览
本帖最后由 远航一号 于 2023-10-3 04:30 编辑

We've been joking that the Establishment's next talking point about the Hunka debacle would be, "Just because someone was a Nazi fighting in the Waffen-SS doesn't make them bad!"Politico went there today:


https://twitter.com/ArmchairW/status/1708873539032612981

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6#
发表于 2023-10-3 07:36:16 |只看该作者
俄罗斯境内确实有一些奇异搞笑的白俄,但这和ss残党有什么关系呢

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5#
发表于 2023-10-3 07:01:02 |只看该作者
井冈山卫士 发表于 2023-10-3 05:05
美国文人逆向淘汰已经到了露骨的地步。

加拿大的这个纳粹余孽可是正牌党卫军。这些外籍党卫军可都是志愿加 ...

“纳粹抵抗白人至上主义”笑不活了
托洛茨基是托洛茨基,托派是托派,“马列托主义者”是“马列托主义者”
如果你要说“马列托主义者”是托派是托洛茨基——哥们你怎么不说纳粹是社会主义呢?

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地板
发表于 2023-10-3 06:22:28 |只看该作者
Fighting against the USSR didn’t necessarily make you a NaziCanada’s Hunka scandal is a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

US troops shake hands with Russian troops in a staged photo on a wrecked bridge oin Germany to mark the link-up between American and Soviet forces to defeat the Nazis | Allan Jackson/Getty Images

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Voiced by artificial intelligence.




Keir Giles is an author and commentator. His most recent book, “Russia’s War on Everybody,” looks at the effects that Russia’s malign influence around the world has on ordinary people.

Everybody knows that a lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on.

And the ongoing turmoil over Canada’s parliament recognizing former SS trooper Yaroslav Hunka highlights one of the most important reasons why.

Something that’s untrue but simple is far more persuasive than a complicated, nuanced truth — a major problem for Western democracies trying to fight disinformation and propaganda by countering it with the truth, and one reason why fact-checking and debunking are only of limited use for doing so.

In the case of Hunka, the mass outrage stems from his enlistment with one of the foreign legions of the Waffen-SS, fighting Soviet forces on Germany’s eastern front. And it’s a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

This history is complicated because fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi, just someone who had an excruciating choice over which of these two terror regimes to resist. However, the idea that foreign volunteers and conscripts were being allocated to the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht on administrative rather than ideological grounds is a hard sell for audiences conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide. And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp.

A photograph of SS Galizien soldier Yaroslav Hunka, taken between 1943 and 1945 | Creative Commons via Wikimedia

Canada’s enemies have thus latched on to these simple narratives, alongside concerned citizens in Canada itself, with the misstep over Hunka being used by Russia and its backersto attack Ukraine, Canada and each country’s association with the other.

According to Russia’s ambassador in Canada, Hunka’s unit “committed multiple war crimes, including mass murder, against the Russian people, ethnic Russians. This is a proven fact.” But whenever a Russian official calls something a “proven fact,” it should set off alarms. And sure enough, here too the facts were invented out of thin air. Repeated exhaustive investigations — including by not only the Nuremberg trials but also the British, Canadian and even Soviet authorities — led to the conclusion that no war crimes or atrocities had been committed by this particular unit.

But this is just the latest twist in a long-running campaign by the Russian Embassy in Ottawa, dating back even to Soviet times, when the USSR would leverage accusations of Nazi collaboration for political purposes as part of its “active measures” operations.

And given Moscow’s own history of aggression and atrocities during World War II and its aftermath, there’s a special cynicism underlying the Russian accusations. Russia feels comfortable shouting about “Nazis,” real or imaginary, in Ukraine or elsewhere, because unlike Nazi Germany, leaders and soldiers of the Soviet Union were never put on trial for their war crimes. Russia clings to the Nuremberg trials as a benchmark of legitimacy because as a victorious power, it was never subjected to the same reckoning. And yet, both before and after their collaborative effort to carve up eastern Europe between them, the Soviets and the Nazis had so much in common that it’s now illegal to point these similarities out in Russia.

Yet, it’s not just enemies of democracy that are subscribing to the seductively simple. Jewish advocacy groups in Canada have been understandably loud in their condemnation of Hunka’s recognition. But here, too, accusations risk being influenced more by misconception and supposition than history and evidence.

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center registered its outrage, noting that Hunka’s unit’s “crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented” — a statement that doesn’t seem to have any more substance than the accusation by Russia.

In fact, during previous investigations of the same group carried out by a Canadian Commission of Inquiry, Simon Wiesenthal himself was found to have made broad accusations that were found to be “nearly totally useless” and “put the Canadian government to a considerable amount of purposeless work.”

The result of all this is that otherwise intelligent people are now trying to outdo each other in a chorus of evidence-free condemnation.

In Parliament itself, Canadian Conservative MP Melissa Lantsman called Hunka “a monster.” Meanwhile, Poland’s education minister appears to have decided to first seek Hunka’s extradition to Poland, then try to determine whether he has actually committed any crime afterward. And the ostracism is now extending to members of Hunka’s family, born long after any possible crime could have been committed during World War II.

The episode shows that dealing with complex truths is hard but essential. Unfortunately, though, a debunking or fact-checking approach to countering disinformation relies on an audience willing to put in the time and effort to read the accurate version of events, and be interested in discovering it in the first place. This means debunking mainly works for very specific audiences, like government officials, analysts, academics and (some) journalists.

But most of the rest of us, especially when just scrolling through social media, are instead likely to have a superficial and fleeting interest, which means a lengthy exposition of why a given piece of information is wrong will be far less likely to reach us and have an impact.

In the Hunka case, commentary taking a more balanced view of the complex history does exist, but it’s rare, and when it does occur, it is by unfortunate necessity very long — a direct contrast to most propaganda narratives that are successfully spread by Russia and its agents. Sadly, an idea simple enough to fit on a T-shirt is vastly more powerful than a rebuttal that has to start with “well, actually . . .”

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now issued an apology in his own name over Hunka’s ovation too. However, any further discussion of the error has to be carefully phrased, as any suggestion that Canada is showing contrition for “honoring a Nazi” would acquiesce to the rewriting of history by Russia and its backers, and concede to allegations of Hunka’s guilt that have no basis in evidence.

It’s true that Hunka should never have been invited into Canada’s House of Commons. But that’s not because he himself might be guilty of any crime. Rightly or wrongly, on an issue so toxic, it was inevitable the invitation would provide a golden opportunity for Russian propaganda.


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板凳
发表于 2023-10-3 05:05:00 |只看该作者
美国文人逆向淘汰已经到了露骨的地步。

加拿大的这个纳粹余孽可是正牌党卫军。这些外籍党卫军可都是志愿加入的,不是强拉的壮丁,这如果都不是纳粹,就等于宣布宣布教皇不是天主教徒一样。

按照同样的说法,和二战西线和美军作战的人也不一定是纳粹。因此,在马尔梅迪屠杀了100多美军战俘的党卫军第一师(阿道夫·希特勒警卫旗队)也不一定是纳粹,而有可能是“抵抗白人至上主义”的英雄。

哪怕美军是摘桃子式的参加二战,它参加二战同盟军这一事实也是其国际事务合法性的唯一标志。当美国的深层国家把特朗普和美国工人阶级称为“纳粹”,却把纳粹党卫军的余孽豁免的时候,就意味着它已经事实上抛弃了美帝国主义和当代世界体系意识形态上层建筑的全部根基。

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沙发
发表于 2023-10-3 04:29:37 |只看该作者
《政客》杂志是美国民主党的喉舌之一
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